♪♪ this sunday, biden's red line. president biden warns israel he will cut off some american weapons if the israeli military launches a full-scale assault inside the city of rafah where more than 1 million palestinians

are sheltering. >> if they go into rafah i'm not supplying the weapons that have been used historically to deal with rafah. >> israel defiant saying they are willing to fight without u.s. help. >> if israel has to stand alone, we'll stand alone. >> give israel what they need to fight the war they can't afford to lose. >> the american people want an immediate ceasefire and they do not want more u.s. military aid going to the war machine. >> is the relationship between the u.s. and israel at a crisis point? my guest this morning secretary of state antony blinken, republican senator lindsay ghlam of south carolina and independent senator bern sanders of vermont. plus legal storm. after ruling donald trump violated a gag order ten times the judge presiding over trump's criminal trial threatens jail time if he violates the gag order again. >> if you say anything slightly

off he wants to put you in jail. >> and after stormy daniels takes the stand describing her sexual encounter with mr. trump the judge rejects the defense team's request for a mistrial. joining me for insight and analysis are nbc news white house correspondent monica alba, former white house press secretary jen psaki and stephen hayes editor of "the dispatch." welcome to sunday. it's "meet the press." from nbc news in washington the longest-running show in television history, this is "meet the press" with kristen welker. good sunday morning and happy mother's day. today the world's eyes are on gaza as the israeli military widens operations including ordering more evacuations from parts of rafah, a densely populated area in southern gaza despite president biden's stark warning that he'll withhold weapons if they launch a major operation. the u.n. says 300,000 people

have fled rafah over the last week. now last week the white house halted a large shipment of 2,500 bombs to israel. president biden warned the pause could extend to even more weapons even though the administration sends smaller arms and it's the biggest break with the israeli government and mr. biden made a striking admission that bombs supplied by the u.s. have killed civilians in gaza. >> civilians have been killed in gaza as a consequence of those bombs and other ways in which they go after population centers and let me be clear that if they go into rafah, they haven't gone into rafah yet, if they go into rafah i'm not supplying the weapons that have been use historically to deal with rafah, to deal with the cities. >> it's a notable evolution from the way the president talks about civilian deaths. >> hamas controlled gaza

ministry says israeli forces have killed over 6,000 palestinians including 2700 children. you've previously asked netanyahu to minimize civilian casualties, do these numbers say to you that he's ignoring that message? >> ma what they say to me is that no notions are the palestinians are telling the truth. i'm sure innocents have been killed. i think we should be incredibly careful and i think the israelis should be incredibly careful, but i have no confidence in the number that the palestinians are using. >> on friday the state department released a report criticizing israel for failing to protect civilians in gaza saying the results on the ground including high levels of civilian casualties raised substantial questions. the report says it is reasonable to assess that israel has violated international law in gaza, but said the u.s. hasn't been able to verify instances that would justify withholding military aid.

that finding allows the u.s. to continue supplying weapons to israel. responding to president biden, israeli prime minister netanyahu said israel is prepareded to go it alone. >> i've known joe biden for many years, 40 years or more. we often had agreements and we've had our disagreements. we've been able to overcome them. i hope we can overcome them now, but we will do what we have to do to protect our country and that means protect our future and that means we will defeat hamas including in rafah, we have no other choice. and joining me now is secretary of state antony blinken. secretary blinken, welcome back to "meet the press". >> good morning, kristen. >> thank you so much for being here. i want to start with that state department report that did not draw a definitive conclusion about israel and whether it's violated international law. amnesty international says of the report this is the, quote, international version of sending

thoughts and prayers. democratic senator chris van holland says it ducks the ultimate questions that the report was designed to determine. mr. secretary, is the u.s. trying to avoid withholding israel accountable for its actions? >> no. we don't have double standards. we treatise rail, one of our closestal ryes and partners like we would any other countries including assessing international humanitarian law and its compliance with that law. the report also makes clear that this is an incredibly complex military environment. you have an enemy that embeds itself with civilians, hiding under and within schools, mosques, apartment buildings and firing up israeli forces from those places. it's very, very difficult in the heat of war to make a definitive assessment about any individual incident, but the report says based on the totality of the

harm that's been done to children, to women, to men who are caught in this crossfire hamas is making it's reasonable to conclude that their instances where israel has acted in ways that are not consistent with international humanitarian law and we continue to look at and investigate each of these incidents, but critically so does israel. there are understands, as we understand it of open inquiries into particular incidents and criminal investigations going forward. israel, unlike many other countries has both the means and the will to try to police itself so we need to let those play out, but our own process that has been under way for many months to look at individual incidents will continue as well and when we can reach down collusion, as well and it is difficult to do that in the midst of war. >> here we are in the seventh month of this war, mr. secretary. how is it possible that the

state department with all of its resources was not able to reach a definitive conclusion on whether israel has violated international law? >> precisely because we continue to be in the midst of this report and making it real time when we don't have people on the ground, when we have that make sure that we're getting information from all concerned that takes time and we want to make sure that we want to reach definitive conclusions, but as the report makes clear, given the totality of the damage that's been done to civilians, to children to women to men, given that, given the fact that israel clearly has procedures, rules, regulations and laws that go into the targeting decisions they make and the way they conduct themselveses and the results that we've seen in terms of the loss of life of innocent civilians, it's reasonable to assess as we say in the report that there are instances where

they've acted inconsistent with obligations under international humanitarian law. those investigations continue both by us and by israel. >> let's zoom out a bit and talk did u.s. policy. the u.s. has urged israel not to invade rafah and troops are on the ground and we learned that 300,000 people are beingec vak waited. president biden threatened to withhold certain weapons while at the same time sending in other weapons and big picture. why should israel believe that the u.s. is willing to back up its threats? >> first, let's step back for one minute and no one been willing to defend israel than president biden. he was there in the days after october 7th and the first president to go to israel in the midst of a conflict, when iran mounted an unresidented attack on israel. 300 projectiles launched at israel. the united states for the for the time ever participated in

the act of defense. president biden brought together a coalition of countries to defend israel and no one has done more than joe biden. at the same time what we've seen over the last few months is a deep concern on our part about the possibility of a major military operation in rafah given the damage it would do to civilians and there are more than 1.4 million gazans in rafah. that's an incredible plan to get them out of harm's way and support them and the president has been clear for some time that we couldn't and would not support a major military operation in rafah. at the same time we share israel's objective of making sure that hamas cannot govern gaza anymore and israel get its leaders and there's a better way of achieving that than going headlong into rafah. that's what we're talking about with israel now and we have a better way of doing it and we are engaged in conversations about that, but the president answering a question was very

clear about where we are on rafah itself and what we would do or not do in the event that they go with the major military operation. >> i hear you saying a credible plan yet for how israel would go into rafah and mitigate civilian casualties. is it fair to say that president biden and prime minister netanyahu are not seeing eye to eye right now? >> two things. one is that as the president said in many conversations over the last couple of months, there has to be a credible plan for the civilians. >> have you seen a credible plan? >> we have not. second, there's something else that's important. we also haven't seen a plan for what happens the day after this war in gaza ends because right now the trajectory that israel is on is even if it goes in and takes heavy action in rafah there will still be thousands of armed hamas left. we've seen in areas that israel has cleared in the north even in

khan younis and hamas coming back. going into rafah even to deal with these remaining battalions especially in the absence of a plan for civilians risks doing terrible harm to civilians and a problem that we want to solve which is making sure that hamas doesn't govern gaza and israel is to inherit an insurgence with hamas left or if it leaves a vacuum filled by chaos and anarchy and refilled by hamas, we've been talking to them about a much better way to get an enduring result both in gaza itself and much more broadly in the region. those conversations done and that's what partners and allies do. we are clear-eyed and we speak the truth to each other as we see it. we have american interests first and foremost in mind. we also have israel's interest

in mind and there may be a difference in view in the best way to achieve them, but that's also the nature of the relationship. >> i want to drill down with you on president biden's threat to withhold weapons. what, exactly, is his red line, mr. secretary? what would trigger him to say i am now withholding weapons? >> we don't talk about red lines when it comes to israel. >> president biden did talk about a red line, though, mr. secretary, respectfully? what would trigger him to make that decision? >> sure. first, we have been holding back and we're in active conversations with israel about the heavy and high payload weapons, large bombs because of the concern that we have about the effect these weapons can have when used in a dense, urban environment like rafah. we are discussing that with israel right now. second, what the president said that if israel goes in with a major military operation in

rafah, in that case there are certain systems that we will not provide to israel that would aid that effort because it's something that we do not want to be part of given the damage that it would do to civilians and again, not to achieve a durable, lasting effective result for security and that's what the president said and we said that in conversations with our israeli partners. it's unfortunate that leaked out, but president responded forthrightly about the question. >> mr. secretary, i want to ask you about the very latest about getting of the hostages released for a ceasefire. we know that the cia director has since returned home. did those talks fall apart because prime minister netanyahu was threatening and is making moves to go into rafah? >> look, first it's important to remind ourselves that hamas should have ended this day one.

this never should have happened, was there a ceasefire that hamas destroyed in the most barbaric way possible, humanly imaginable, but every day after that, hamas could have decided to give up the hostages and stop hiding behind civilians, and put down its weapons and all of this could have been over. the quickest way for this to end is for hams to give up the hostages and we would get a ceasefire that we can build on and build something more lasting and more durable. the different teams continue to talk. it remains ableable that the fastest way to get to a ceasefire and the fastest way to get to an agreement is through a ceasefire and to try to get it to happen. i think you can question whether hamas actually wants to get this. it would also be the best way that we can surge humanitarian assistance and better protect civilians in gaza. hamas reports to be interested in that. its actions certainly

demonstrate the opposite. >> all right. secretary blinken, thank you so much for your time this morning. we really appreciate it. >> when we come back, independent senator bernie sanders of vermont joins me next. (fisher investments) at fisher investments we may look like other money managers, but we're different. (other money manager) you can't be that different. (fisher investments) we are. we have a team of specialists not only in investing, but also also in financial and estate planning and more. (other money manager) your clients rely on you for all that? (fisher investments) yes. and as a fiduciary, we always put their interests first. (other money manager) but you still sell commission -based products, right? (fisher investments) no. we have a simple management fee structured so we do better when our clients do better. (other money manager) huh, we're more different than i thought! (fisher investments) at fisher investments, we're clearly different. i have moderate to severe plaque psoriasis. thanks to skyrizi, i'm on my way with clearer skin. 3 out of 4 people achieved 90% clearer skin at 4 months. and skyrizi is just 4 doses a year after 2 starter doses. serious allergic reactions

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welcome back. as tensions on college campuses mount, students protested the war in gaza at commencement ceremonies across the country. on saturday from berkeley, california, to chapel hill, north carolina and madison, wisconsin, dozens of students walked out of the virginia commonwealth university ceremony as governor glen youngkin delivered the commencement address there. joining me is the independent senator from vermont, bernie sanders. senator sanders, welcome back to "meet the press". >> good to be with you.

>> we appreciate you being here on a busy sunday morning and i want to get your reaction to the state department report and what you heard from the secretary of state defending the report and there was no definitive conclusion and he had not seen a definitive plan from israel to go into rafah without mitigating civilian casualties. what was your takeaway, senator? >> kristen, i have a lot of respect for tony blinken. he has an impossibly difficult job, but the reality is is i think as any objective observer knows, israel has broken international law, it has broken american law and israel should not be receiving another nick el in u.s. military aid. hamas is a disgusting terrorist

organization that began this war and what israel has done is it has gone to war against the entire palestinian people and the results have been absolutely catastrophic. kristen, we're talking not just 35,000 palestinians dead and 77,000 wounded, two-thirds of whom are women and children and that is not the way you conduct civilized society. we are talking about 60% of the housing in gaza having been destroyed, the civilian infrastructure, that's water, that is raw sewage. running out into the streets. no electricity. you are talking about a systematic destruction of the healthcare system there, every university in gaza has been bombed and right now most frighteningly, according to the humanitarian organizations we are looking at the likelihood of

hundreds of thousands of children facing starvation, the foreign assistance act is very clear, any entity, any state, any country that blocks u.s. humanitarian aid is in vileation of law and should not continue to receive military aid and that is precisely what israel has done. >> let me press you. you believe israel shouldn't receive another cent and yet 26 house democrats wrote a letter to the white house saying, quote, they are deeply concerned about the message the administration is sending to hamas and other iranian-backed terrorist proxies. does withholding weapons to israel run the risk of prolonging this war and weakening israel's hand against hamas? >> no -- look, every republican,

as i understand it wants to give huge amounts of money to israel. my guess is that many republicans want israel to go into rafah despite the incredible humanitarian destruction that will cause and there are democrats who also feel that way, but this is what i will tell you, kristen, that is not what the american people feel. poll after poll suggest that the american people want an immediate ceasefire. they want massive humanitarian aid to get in. people of our country do not want to be complicit in the star vagsz of hundreds of thousands of children. by the way, when we talk about the international community, we are increasingly isolated in terms of our support for israel who is becoming a pariah nation. >> senator, is there a non-military way to get rid of hamas given the threat that they pose? given than they say their very goal is to destroy israel's

existence? >> you're right. you're absolutely right. look, hamas -- that is exactly right. that is their goal. it is difficult. i don't want to minimize this, so the goal is to defeat hamas, but not to destroy or cause the enormous amount of destruction that we are now seeing in gaza, and i hope that the future for the palestinian people is a new generation of palestinian leaders who focus on allowing the people to have a state of their own, like to support a two-state solution improving the economy and rebuilding the economy and that's a long-term goal. >> senator, i have to ask you about some comments you made this week saying that the middle east, the israel-hamas war could be biden's vietnam, arguing politically speaking this could cost him the election. in the wake of biden's new warning to israel, do you stand

by those comments or do you think that the landscape has now changed? >> well, i certainly support the president saying that it is absurd to provide israel with 2,000-pound bombs which could level an entire square block in the midst of rafah which is an incredibly densely populated area so the president is clearly right. what i worry about is that this war in gaza right now is not only strongly opposed by young people, but a whole lot of people in the democratic base. >> so you think this could be his vietnam? >> do you still think this could be his vietnam? >> look, i am strongly supporting the president because on many domestic issues he's done an excellent job, but i think there are a lot of people in the democratic base who are concerned about his support for israel in this war. >> senator, very quickly, you

have talked about and announced this week that you are running for re-election, of course. this comes -- you're 82 years old, and i don't have to tell you this, but age is obviously a big issue in the presidential election. are you concerned that age could be a political liability for you? >> well, look, i think age is a factor, experience is a factor, accomplishment is a factor and most importantly a factor in politics is what do you believe in? and i would hope that the people in vermont and the people of the united states look at candidates in their totality. i should also tell you, i would not have run -- announced re-election, my intention to seek re-election unless i felt pretty good, with the exception of a week off of covid i haven't missed a day off of work. i feel pretty good.

>> that is what your staff says. you never take vacation. let me ask you, yes or no, do you think israel-hamas war potentially runs the risk of being biden's vietnam? yes or no? >> i think a lot of people are disappointed -- well, it's hurting him politically. yes, of course, it is. >> okay. there you have it. senator bernie sanders, thank you very much for joining me this morning. i really appreciate the conversation. and when we come back, republican senator lindsay graham of south carolina joins me next. ♪♪ ♪♪ when you need to prepare for unpredictable adventures... (gasp) you need weathertech. [hot dog splat.] laser measured floorliners front and rear. [drink slurp and splat.] (scream) seat protector to save the seats. [honk!] they're all yours! we're here! hey, i knew you were comin'... so i weatherteched the car! can we get ice cream? we can now.

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ask about ubrelvy. learn how abbvie could help you save. welcome back. senate republicans are criticizing president biden for providing the high payload bombs to israel. south carolina senator lindsay graham grilled pentagon leaders. >> if we stop weapons necessary to destroy the enemies of the state of israel at a time of great peril, we will pay a price. this is obscene. it is absurd. give israel what they need to fight the war they can't afford to lose.

this is hiroshima and nagasaki on steroids. >> and senator lindsay graham joins me now. senator graham, welcome back to "meet the press." >> happy mother's day. >> thank you, senator. i appreciate that very much. look, you have been quite clear, as we just heard there that you are opposed to president biden's threat to withhold military aid if israel does invade rafah, but let me ask you this question why shouldn't israel's war against hamas proceed in a more precise way with a clear plan to mitigated civilian deaths in gaza? >> well, i think it's impossible to mitigate civilian deaths in gaza as long as hamas uses their own population as human shields. i've never seen in the history warfare such blatant efforts by an enemy, hamas to put civilians at risk and the last thing you want to do is reward this

behavior. they put weapons in mosques. they fire artillery rounds from apartment buildings. they put command centers under hospitals to maximize civilian casualties as israel tries to destroy the terrorist group. you don't want to reward this by restricting weapons to the victim of the attack, but let me just say this. this is mother's day, happy mother's day, but this is a tough time for the world. what senator sanders said, not another nickel of military aid to the united states is the most dangerous, irresponsible statement in the history of the u.s. relationship. this is not vietnam. israel is in a fight for their lives. hamas says they will do it again and again and again, they're dedicated to the destruction of the jewish state and not helping palestinian people. iran, the great satan views to

destroy israel and hezbollah. israel is surrounded by terrorists that want to destroy the jewish state and not help the palestinians. this is 9/11 and pearl harbor all rolled into one. it would be outrageous, danger rouse and the republicans will fight back against bernie sanders and the squad. >> senator, let me push you a little bit, though, because of course, the israel has provided israel with tens of thousands of bombs and missiles just approved some $14 billion in military aid last month. so the united states, even the idf has said has given an extraordinary amount of support. i want to ask you, though, do you think israel is in any way prepared to listen to, to work with president biden and is he trustworthy and let me ask it this way, in a survey this week help half of israelis thought the chief consideration the political survival.

you trust israel more than the u.s. defense secretary. why should americans trust netanyahu to put the united states interests first? >> americans should be all in in helping israel against an existential threat. the one thing israel and the u.s. have in common, hamas would attack us if they could, iran is the largest state sponsor terrorism that shouts death to america and hose bell onna is in the same camp. i've never heard anybody in israel chant death to america. the people israel is fighting are bent to destroying all of the jews. this is holocaust remembrance month for god's sake. we should unequivocally support israel and yes, work with them to limit civilian casualties. they want to do that, i know they do. they have a whole battalion dedicated to that, but this idea of withholding weapons to israel is putting civilians at risk.

here's my statement to the administration, work out a plan that gets us all to where we need to be. i spoke with israel they are discussing with the biden administration a way forward. i am somewhat hopeful we can jump over this impasse, but do not let bernie sanders run this war. burdeny sanders and the squad are insane when it comes to how to defend israel. he just said on national television cut off every nickel of military aid to the jewish state who is being threatened with oblivion, shut these people down. this decision was political. he is trying to appease the right and left. >> the position not to cut off every nickel and i guess the question is why does israel need the most massive bombs that could potentially level an entire block in order to wage this war? why can't it be more precise?

>> listen, you know, here's what i would say about fighting an enemy who wants to kill you and your family. why do we drop two bombs, nuclear bombs on hiroshima and nagasaki to end a war that we could aren't afford to lose? you don't understand apparently what israel is facing. they're facing three groups, iran who has received $80 billion in aid. when trump left office they were exporting 300 billion oils of day and now they are 1.3 million a day. they've been enriched by biden and they've taken that money to kill all of the jews. when we were faced with destruction as a nation after pearl harbor fighting the japanese we decided to end the war by the bombing hiroshima and nagasaki with nuclear weapons and that was the right decision. give israel the bombs they need to end the war they can't afford to lose and work with them to minimize casualties. >> senator, military officials

would argue that there has been so much technology since those bombs were dropped that for that very reason that is why israel and other developed can be more precise, but let me ask it this way because president biden is not the first president to use armed shipments to try to influence israeli policy. as you know former president ronald reagan on multiple occasions withheld weapons to impact israel's military actions. did president reagan show that using u.s. military aid as leverage can actually be an effective way to rein in and impact israel's policy? >> when you're telling the world you will restrict weapons delivery to the jewish state who is fighting a war for their survival it embowdens iran, it emboldens hamas. it is too stuck on the idea for

the united states and israel, this is the worst decision in the history of the u.s. relationship. at a time the jewish state can be destroyed and here's what i would say. there is some hope we can get over this, non-negotiable with the destruction of hamas. nobody in israel will allow hamas to be standing. how we get there is second to negotiation. my problem is not with the weapons israel is using and my problem is with the hamas issues and the idea that america would not send a nickel of aid echoed by the united states senator when all of the jews are trying to be killed by radical islamic groups tells us where we are at as a nation. the republican party is with israel without apology. >> historians would say why is it okay for reagan to do it and not president biden, but let me ask you -- >> why is it okay for america to

drop two nuclear bombs on hiroshima and nagasaki to end their existential war? why was it okay for us to do that. to israel, do whatever you have to do to survive as a jewish state. whatever you have to do. >> let me ask you about how -- >> these military officials that you're talking about -- >> let me ask you. >> are full of crap. >> let me ask you something they know you care a lot about and that is the saudi normalization deal. >> yes. >> how would a ground invasion into rafah impact what you believe is critical, getting a deal for normalization in the region with saudi arabia. >> really good question. >> number one, i want to keep pursuing this because you asked tony a good question. what happens the day after. to my friends in israel, what was the day after? to tony, what happens the day after? i want the arab world, the uae and saudi arabia to come in and

give the palestinian people hope once we destroy hamas. i want normalization between saudi arabia and israel and that's the worst nightmare for iran and that's why october 7th, i think, happened. here's what's happened. when you deny israel weapons the saudis are beginning to wonder, am i a good ally? should i sign up to this? would they turn on me if i get in a conflict? the biggest threat to the deal is to use rafah invasion to back israel off. i am still going to pursue the deal. i hope we can get this issue with the weapons transfers behind us and we can get back on setting the conditions where we can normalize between saudi arabia and israel and as part of that have a new palestinian opportunity where they'll have a better life, where the arabs helped them build gaza and the west bank. i'm not giving up on that. i've just never been more worried about what the signals

we're sending to our enemies than i am right now. when we are doing with israel is unconscionable and it needs to stop. we need to be with israel without apology. >> very quickly, before i let you go. a question about 2024, will you accept the results of the 2024 election no matter who wins? >> yeah, i'll accept it, but i think there's no massive cheating. i accepted 2020. here's what i would say. president trump is poised to win. he said last night when it comes to israeli will have their back and i'll give them what they need. bernie sand sers wrong about the polling here. most american, 80% side with israel. the 20%, unfortunately, are a congress and a state department that side with hamas. that's the problem with this war. >> all right, senator, we are out of time. senator graham, i should say, you just invoked another senator's name. >> we are often confused.

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welcome back. may is mental health awareness month and 23-time gold medalist michael phelps, the most decorated olympian of all time is opening up about his battle with depression. phelps sat down with me for a meet the moment conversation and talked about how he deals with his mental health struggles and his activism. >> when did you first realize you were really struggling with depression? >> i would say probably 2004. 2004 was my first taste of post-olympic depression. coming off such a high it's basically like the edge of a cliff, like cool, now what? i guess i have to wait four more years for the chance to do it again and for those that don't have a successful olympics those

four years are absolutely -- so for me, 2004 was the first case of post-olympic depression because coming off of that high after doing something you set out to do your whole entire life. my goal was to do something no one else had ever done before, and i did it by the age of 19, 20. >> did you know it was depression or did you just think i'm feeling a little off? >> think at that point, you know, i'll say as a male athlete i can tell something was off, but i think i saw it as a sign of weakness and if i shared anything about it it would give my competitors an edge, and i'm not trying to do that, right? i don't want to give my competitors an edge. i'm trying to be better than anybody, period, has ever been. so for me, i looked at it as weakness. so for me, i had to learn that vulnerability is a good thing, and it was scary at first, but i learned that vulnerability just means change and for me it was a great change.

>> if you or someone you know is struggling or in crisis, help is available. call or text 988 or chat at 988lifeline.org. you can hear more of our conversation with michael phelps next sunday here on "meet the press" and tune into the paris olympics on nbc and peacock. when we come back, donald trump's former attorney michael cohen is expected to take the stand this week. the panel is next . (vo) sail through the heart of historic cities and unforgettable scenery with viking. unpack once and get closer to iconic landmarks, local life and cultural treasures. because when you experience europe on a viking longship, you'll spend less time getting there and more time being there. viking. exploring the world in comfort. (aaron) i own a lot of businesses... so my tech and my network need to keep up.

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welcome back. the panel is here. nbc news white house correspondent monica alba, jen psaki, former white house press secretary, host of "inside with jen psaki" and author of the new book "say more. lessons from work, the white house and the world" and stephen hayes, editor of "the dispatch." jen, here we have your book with us. happy mother's day. >> thank you. >> happy mother's day. >> we'll have a signing after the show. >> monica, start us off and set the table here and obviously this extraordinary warn by president biden this week saying that he would cut off military aid and it's been the focus of all of these conversations that we've had this morning. what prompted him to make that warning this week? was it the buildup of political pressure? was it his own frustration with israel? white house officials will tell you that for decades this president makes foreign policy

decisions based on national security and not on politics, but in all my conversations with biden advisers over the course of this consequential last week, they can see that it is impossible to ignore the political ramifications here and they certainly talk about that in the context of this policy shift, of drawing that line as you were discussing and it is very notable. they point out that israel has the weapons it needs to go forward with this full-scale invasion into rafah. so the president threatening to withhold that military aid is largely symbolic in many ways and it is about a political messaging and signaling at this point in the war and it comes amid this larger backdrop of democratic divisions within the president's own party as you just saw there in your interview with senator sanders that were progressive and who have been very critical of the president during this war who now are praising this move and there are others who really are not convinced and who say this doesn't mean much at this point given the mass number of

civilian casualties and the real lack of humanitarian aid getting into gaza. >> yeah. and that divide, jen, it is so stark for the campaign, for those close to president biden. you actually think he should have spoken out and done this sooner. >> i think that as it related to the diplomatic aspect. i worked with secretary kerry for a couple of years. i went 30 times to israel and i spent a lot of time in those negotiating roops with prime minister netanyahu. the politics of this are very hard to predict. there's no question and there's a lot of activism on campus and antisemitism in the country and a lot of dynamics politically. the best thing they can do is reach a ceasefire and that's the best thing they can do. to add what monica said, what president biden is doing, he's been having tougher private conversations. some of those have been read out with prime minister netanyahu. this is the use of leverage and that's how diplomacy works and it's threatening if you don't

change your behavior this is what will happen and it's not walking away from israel's security and it is using leverage so that they don't go into a city that has a million people and that is what they're trying to do right now. >> they may not be walking away from israel's security and it is undermining israel's security and president biden said this himself back in october the day after the attack and the more separation that there is between the united states and israel the greater strength it gives to hamas and hezbollah and israel's enemy and both in word and deed what we saw from the biden administration this week was this weakening. this was a seven-month process and he came out strong in the beginning and now given the reasons that senator sanders has articulated and given the fact that there's this buildup of domestic, political pressure on joe biden you're seeing him create this space in a way that's likely to intensify the civilian damage and lengthen the conflict overall. >> i think this is a very wrong read. >> how do you really feel? >> the politics are important. they're also unpredictable and

you have to be present and watch that closely. there is also the potential for the israeli military to go into the city of a million people where 300,000 people have already left. no one has been more supportive of the israeli government and to the frustration of many democrats than joe biden and the alternative of not using leverage is the israeli military going in and absolutely leveling rafah, killing hundreds of thousands of people that won't destroy hamas and any intelligence official will tell you that and there are no plans for the day after and that's not actually an effective, wise strategy. >> the united states is withholding key intelligence on hamas leadership in rafah and on the tunnels. how does withholding that intelligence make it more likely that israel succeeds in meeting its military objectives. >> and that is the debate and the crux of what you are both saying which is what you are saying and how do you wage this war and monica, it does come

against the backdrop of this campaign that is ramping up and of course, the question is where does this go on the trail? how do we see it play out on the trail? you actually have some new reporting not necessarily as it relates in the war in the middle east and as it relates with the biden campaign is how to intensify and galvanize its supporters against some of the administrative support and. >> and that is the reminder that we are months away from the critical election and the biden campaign is trying to wage that fight while dealing with this very serious challenge overseas, but in terms of that fund-raising. for a long time, the dnc has had a cash advantage. that's about to look very different for republicans with former president trump and the rnc that now he has clinched the nomination and you can see the biden team with trying to boost the fund-raising star power and they'll do a fundraiser with george clooney, julia roberts

and former president obama in mid-june in los angeles and there will also be a fundraiser with former president bill clinton and former secretary of state hillary clint earlier this summer. they see a direct line from huge halls from events like that to being able to build infrastructure and open offices and hire key staff in those critical battleground states where yes, some of those young voters who are so disillusioned with the critical handling of the war and they'll go all in on that. >> stephen, the backdrop to the biden campaign kind of relying on this celebrity power is we are seeing donald trump in court day after day. this week, michael cohen takes the stand this past week, stormy daniel, the adult film star at the center of the hush money trial was on the stand. he was in new jersey overnight campaigning, taking aim at these legal battles and how do you see this playing out moving forward?

do you think these legal battles will alienate some of those critical independent women, moderate voters that he needs to win? >> yeah. i think they likely will. if you look at the speech he gave in wildwood new jersey he was giving a peach to his base and it was very clear that is what he was doing. this is joe biden, and this is the justice department and keeping me from campaigning and that is a message that not only is receptive to in rallies a trial that involved hush money payments to a porn star that he was cheating with on his wife and that is not the news that you want to appeal to the voters. >> the voters are the nikki haley voters. could she potentially be trump's runningmate. he says no, he's not considering her and those are the voters that could make a difference. >> it will be a close race around six states.

to monica's point, the biden team feels they can already do the organizational stuff that the trump team is behind on. just to add to it, as stephen pointed out. there have been polls that suggest that if trump is convicted it could make a difference. i guess we'll see in terms of how people perceive it. you have a woman on the stand, and she talked about blacking out when the former president of the united states was having sex with her. this is the man who said women should have their own choices. those are underestimating the movement of women, we'll see and the character aspects of this trial and that is interesting to me to see how that impacts. >> the polls are just getting tighter, you guys. fantastic conversation, a preesh it and many mother's day. >> happy mother's day to you.

>> thank you. >> thank you very much for watching and happy mother's day to you all out there and we'll be back next week because if it's sunday, it's "meet the press." ♪♪ ♪♪

a star witness speaking out. michael cohen set to take the stand in just hours in donald trump's hush money trial. we're live with what to expect from the key testimony. breaking overnight. the